Jason Knight 0:00 Hello, and welcome to the show and Happy New Year to all of my wonderful listeners. And yes, that includes you. In 2022. This podcast went from strength to strength, and I'm glad you're sticking with me for five minutes 2023. Now if I can just lower the mood a minute, I recently found out the leadership coach who helped me through some hard times and level up my career is suffering from late stage cancer, and our friends are trying to rustle up some money to help perform some lasting memories with a young child. If you feel like donating, check the link in the show notes. And let's see if we can't help it do just that. And for me, thanks, Tracy for everything that you've done for me. Oh, right back to an episode where we asked ourselves, is it time to take our products International? What does that even mean? How do we know where to stop? What mistakes can we avoid? And why do I keep picking on Albania? Well, my guest tonight has answers to most of those questions and more, so stick with us on one. Jason Knight 0:54 So, my guest tonight is Chui Chui Tan. Chui Chui is an international growth advisor culturalization, strategist, author and speaker who says she hates self centeredness, but loves finding out people's stories, which makes me wonder whether now's the time to start reciting my memoirs, tweed really loves discovering new things and places and has visited 48 countries before settling in the West of England. But she's taken a global passion into her consulting work as an internationalisation expert, and says she wants to help bring you closer to your global customers and deliver what your local users want, need and deserve. Hi, Chui Chui, how are you tonight? Chui Chui Tan 1:35 I'm good, thank you, how are you? Jason Knight 1:38 I am fine, COVID aside, but let's hope that my voice holds up. But first things first, you are a director, international growth advisor and culturalization strategists but a bio global, which claims they brings you to your global customers from stories to insights to propositions, which sounds very important and very exciting. But what problems are you specifically solving for your clients? Chui Chui Tan 1:59 What problem so mainly actually to focus on how they can grow and also to be closer to their customers in different market. So understanding what their customer wants and the local context and the history of the countries and the political situations and economic and because all of those is going to influence how local users behave. So it's kind of understanding those insights and contexts and then say, Okay, what does that mean to the business and how the business actually provide what the users want and need and forward, and then start growing the business from there. Jason Knight 2:38 That's interesting, this thing about politics and history and all of that stuff, because that's something that certainly in the rich, overprivileged West that we seem to be quite bad at actually understanding most of that stuff. So do you find that the people that you're dealing with have a high appetite to do that kind of cultural work, rather than just wanting a really quick fix to get into X country? Like, is there an appetite for them to start to understand properly, what is behind some of these countries and cultural decisions that are made, Chui Chui Tan 3:04 and lucky in a way that most of my clients that I work with actually have a sense of, oh, we need to grow, we need to understand what we should do. And in that sense, different clients have different level of understanding in what that means. So some clients quite mature to our businesses, they're quite mature in, okay, we need to dig deeper, and understand what that means. Some organisations might be, it's not like they're ignorant about that, because otherwise, they wouldn't have come to me in the first place. But they just need a bit more guidance in terms of like, what we should look into. It's not just about the language. And it's not just about what's out there, and how people using things are doing things using my products. So yeah, they just need a bit of guidance in that. So for organisations who want a quick fix, and just do this and move on, no, I think that calibration wouldn't have happened. Yeah. Jason Knight 4:00 Fair enough. Gives you a certain level of quality assurance right there. But what sort of companies you're doing it for? Is it mainly big companies? Is it small to medium companies? Like I'm assuming that startups generally don't try and go big, quite so soon before they even got product market fit. But like, what's your sweet spot for the type of client that you take on? Chui Chui Tan 4:19 Is a mixture really, so I work with a lot with big companies like Spotify, and I have worked with them for more than 40 countries now. Wow. In different teams and looking into different elements of the business is pre launch. What we should look into some kind of like we're growing quite well, we want to see next steps is and some niches like we're not doing as well. We want to see what we can do better. But I also work with startup as well like Vc as well to kind of look into how to think about growing their startups, even before they start thinking about going to the new countries. because there's one actually one issues or one mistakes that actually a lot of sellers, or business owners make is they think, Oh, I'm not ready. I'm just doing one market at the moment. I just want to grow it. And then once I ready, I will come to you, and then we will talk about it. But it's a very, it's kind of it's a, it's a mistake in some way. Because sometimes you need to start early thinking about, okay, when I'm getting ready to launch, what does that mean? You have to think ahead about how to create your business propositions, business product, how you build your business, thinking ahead about how easy my product to be adapt in the future, how easy My business is going to be adapt in the future to different markets. So if I can give you examples, Oh, please. So one, I was working with a VC and a startup for medical related service, but it's more focusing on supporting parents, our parents to be from the point that before they get pregnant, trying to get pregnant, to go through into pregnancy, and then two years after pregnancy, this kind of support and informations and things like that. So they knew they're going to go into new countries in the future of though they focus on the UK first. But they were trying to kind of see how they should position their products, how should they present their informations and the insights that they have? So they were saying, Well, one option is to just launch what they think is right for the UK market, and then wait until they need to launch to other markets, then they do this, they can understand and do research in other markets and see what does that mean? Are there other options, which they luckily they go for is to kind of say, Okay, we actually knew we are going to launch into new market in a year or two year time, let's prepare for that. So what we did, actually, we found out that when it comes to medical, it's not just purely providing informations for one market. And that is it. But actually, it's depending on the medical system in different countries, like in the UK, you actually don't go into see midwife after a few months. But actually, in other countries, that set is different. The terminology they use are very different from one country to the others. And also, you have to think about cultural elements or other culture have traditional elements that you have to think about, oh, I brought on my kids this way, which is not very scientific, and why do I have all these kinds of different products, how you can position your products, and design your products. So that actually needs to be thought ahead? Before you even ready to launch on the market. So the earliest you think about how you can adapt to a new market in the future, the better it is. Otherwise, you might actually reach the heart of race of have to rebuild everything from the back end to the design or your proposition might to have to completely change and to adapt from one market to the ad. Jason Knight 8:02 But that's really interesting, because one thing that that brings to mind is like how early is too early or like how to avoid over engineering your product. So I completely agree. So for example, I've worked in places where all of a sudden, we've had to kind of emergency rip out all of the old for example, language from a particular application or website and make it translatable localizable, which obviously isn't the whole thing. There's lots of other things that you have to worry about too. But like the bare bones of just being able to have an app that's in the language that you're going into, and an app that just wasn't at all set up for that. So like, then you get to that kind of emergency, rip it all out, put the new stuff in. And it's all a big effort to get that done. But then hopefully it works from that point onwards. Yeah. But there's also a kind of the flip side as well. You don't want to over engineer it too soon. Because obviously, then you're spending time on things that may never come off. So is there like a real fine balance between making sure that you're prepared for the future? And that you're thinking ahead, but not spending so much time building stuff that may never actually come to pass? Chui Chui Tan 9:02 Yeah, no, that's very good point. I'm not saying that. I don't think you need to kind of put a lot of money or invest a lot of time into kind of like, what does that mean, if we have five markets and three markets, it's more like having the mindset and think ahead, like, Okay, well, this decision we're going to make now going to be easy for us to adapt in the future. Yeah. So take an example of the back end, right. So, ideally, you want to have one framework that you kind of be able you want to build a framework where you be easy to kind of pluck in and out, adapt, modular setup, right so that you can say okay, yeah, for payment methods in the future, we can just change the payment methods easily or for the content that we are creating video we are going to make it easily to adapt to different markets in terms of how we put in information for different markets the same module, we can change the content and things like that. Yeah. So even things like that you, you have to consider on that sense. So years ago, I was working with Marriott International Hotel as well, like they were one of the company who big company who many, like for even 1415 years ago, they already start thinking about internalisation. So but even when we start going through different countries and understanding what we need to change to adapt and scale as well, we start to realise that actually the the way that the system has been built, it's really hard to adapt to different countries. So it takes them a lot, many, many years to cannot change a bit, because the framework is all and it has been used Majan like, you have to change for so many countries, it become even harder. So it's more about having the mindset. And Kevin I and put bear in mind that other things, you have questions like well, that easy to adapt in the future? What do we know, need to know now, so that we don't have to rebuild everything from the very beginning. Jason Knight 11:00 So what you're saying is people need to actually have a strategy, which is something that not everyone has. But hopefully some people will be inspired to make one. But international growth is something that a lot of companies seem to want. I think, as we touched on already, some of them seem to want it maybe a little bit too early. Or maybe we could be charitable and say that they're thinking ahead. But what are some of the things that in your opinion needs to be in place like on the ground level, bare minimum requirements before a company even considers actually going international, rather than just planning for it? Chui Chui Tan 11:31 So there are a few things that you need to look into. So one is like whether or not that you are actually Well, first of all, is you have the products in your home market? And how does that doing and how it does grow? And do you understand enough on that. And when you're ready to launch in a new market, you will figuring out like, what is the next market I should go like is that is that to do at you just choose randomly one of them are the most common one is to choose the English versions of the countries like UK will go to us or America or Australia, you know those, which is fair enough to a lot of instances, because then you say actually, I don't have to localise the language. And a lot of people are saying, we actually acts quite similar, which is not true in many occasions. Oh, the other ones, just let's choose a language that to cover most country live Spanish because it covers Spain and Latin America. And so once we launch in Spanish, then we we are fine with all these markets already. So that is very dangerous way to think about things. Sometimes it could work something but in most cases is kind of a bit quick, short sighted and decisions. Because it's not just about language, like for example, like, let's take French, so French, you can say okay, I have French ready. So I can cover France with learn and also Canada, for example. But think about the small elements like even within this country, you are using different currencies, you have a different using date formatting, and you're using a lot of different things that you still have to adapt, and you have to make changes to that as well. So how I actually have a framework that I use with with my clients is how to figure out what you need to do is not exercise rather than frameworks that you have access that you have to think about. So one one access is how much effort that you need to put in, or how much time you need to put in or invest in one launcher in that market successfully. And then the other assess is more about revenue, or how much return of investment you're going to get out of that. Then you kind of plot using whatever knowledge you have, and then kind of brainstorming together and say, Okay, where do that plot into the this graph or this framework? And then you can make decisions based on that. Sometimes, I will go in and question the questions that they that questions, they have offices they have, they might say, Oh, this is easy, because then I will go in and as a How about this episode about that? And then in a lot of cases, then there was an okay, I haven't thought of that you are right. It's not as easy as we thought. Or they don't actually know how to kind of estimate the calculations of return of investment, like the market size, how to get in and how to break into that. So that's the conversation I normally have, especially for startups, and when they about to launch as well. Jason Knight 14:30 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I think that the comments around the different types of English was a question I was gonna ask later that maybe it's a bit moot now. But this idea like you say that people look at America, for example, and they say, hey, they speak English in America. And America is huge. And we could just go there. They've all watched the crown, so there'll be okay, they can just listen to our English accent and it'd be fine. And oh, hey, Australia over there. They speaking this too, so we might as well throw that in and oh, hey, You know, various other countries around the world, they also, they also speak English and therefore, we kind of get those for free. Now I know that you've just touched on the importance of, for example, taking account of local currencies taking account of local culture, but is there actually any validity in almost using that as an MVP? So for example, sitting down and saying, Hey, I know that America does a lot of things differently to me. I also know that there's going to be a bunch of competitors that I'm not well positioned against yet, because of course, unless they're huge companies, I've probably never heard of them. And I have too little research on that. But is there any kind of land and expand play there where you can say, Fine, we accept those risks? We're going to do America anyway. Because it's such a huge market, let's just try and get in and then iterate from there? Or do you think that they should make more effort upfront to try to adapt to that local culture before they go in? Chui Chui Tan 15:54 I will say the latter in most cases, because because it's there's a danger, sometimes you just, we just go there and then see how it goes on and start growing. Because sometimes, once you've made the dent, it's hard to recover. Yeah. So you might come in, and then you kind of like, oh, we are this milk. And we come in from the UK, for example. And this is how we're going to do and then people look at get the you might get the hive and then fail, say, Oh, we check it out or kind of, but then it's actually turned out to be not the right way or something offends them or something that they just put an off. And it's really sometimes really, really hard to recover back. Even you get the right, some companies managed to do that. But it's harder to do that as well. I think it's also the other point is also depending on what industry and what products or what kind of services that you offer. So in certain elements that you're right, in certain elements may be British, or Australian, or the Americans actually share a lot of commonality in certain area. But in other area, for example, medical is different, for example, and finance probably is different of how people go about manage money is kind of very different from from America, UK. Yeah. So in that sense, then you know, your product is actually very different. And people actually be used, that your services might be behave very differently. So then in that case, then probably not. But if you have very confident that the product you're using, for example, buying what you call the maybe grocery is quite similar to between the two countries, then you actually have a lower risks in kind of just launch and see how it goes and then start moving. So it's very, depending on what kind of product and services you do, then your the level of risk they're taking is a bit slightly lower. And talking about America. So for example, America is huge. And I was working with a health tech company as well, we went to a run down in Kenya and looking into understanding how people manage health, and especially TV, TB, HIV and mental health as well. And then the sink the company as well who actually have a big market in America. And to be honest, certain aspects or certain areas in America, people are leaving with no, they can rate, low literacy rate. And they actually live without much of the technology and things like that, if you compare that those areas, and those groups of Americans might actually share a lot of similarity with, you know, people in Africa, for example, in medical data and read it and use the world literature and things like that. So, you know, it's not like one as a whole, you just need to know, your users. And how does that compare within your, your service, your industry, Jason Knight 18:44 more research needed. And again, probably a strategy as well, yeah, it could be a dirty word for some companies. But when it comes to going international, there are two main ways to do it. As far as I can tell anyway, and maybe you can tell me some more if I've missed any, you can either sell to multinational companies, but you're dealing with the local office in your country. So for example, big multinational, you're in the UK, they've got an office in the UK, you chat to them, and they kind of push you as a global initiative through their own organisation, rather than you having to go out to all these other countries. And then there's the other way, which is, well, actually, I need to go and set up a sales office and a support organisation in other countries, and I want to go and sell to those countries directly. Do you support both of those models yourself? Or you really optimise to one or the other? And I guess also, importantly, Have I missed anything? Chui Chui Tan 19:31 Have you missed anything? So as the third one is hybrid, so some companies actually do both? Oh, that's cheating. No, you're just so saying what is missing? So? Yep, some companies actually a lot of companies, especially products, physical products, companies actually do most because in some countries, it's easy for them to kind of launch in this market easily. And some countries they say okay, we're not going to put a lot of effort yet but we just On the Tesla market, we go through with distributions and distributors to do that. And sometimes maybe the other option is collaborations. So you launch together, but you collaborations with any other companies so that you actually can push your names out easily. So that's another option as well, in terms of which one I work with most is a combination. But although the wait is more on terms of those actually launch themselves, because that's where they actually have more control in terms of how they want to do their business, how do they want to grow and strategy wise, and some companies actually, when I work with them, they are in the stage of kind of stuck, you remember the hybrid that we'll talk about some countries that already have them. And some of them, they actually have some distributors or whatever, whoever to local to help them, they were in the process of bringing them back themselves, so they can actually have more control. So I do work with company like that. So every businesses have different stages, in terms of where they are. Jason Knight 21:00 Yeah, that makes sense. But one of the cons that I've seen of that local office approach is that you end up getting dragged into markets that might not be that promising. But you're kind of getting forced into them by that one big customer that you always do everything they say. So you're working for a big customer, as a SAS organisation, for example. And they say, Hey, we've got an office in Albania or somewhere like that, and you can't sign the deal. Unless you've got Albanian versions of your app and Albanian, this and Albanian that now. I've got nothing against Albania. But it may well be true to say that Albania isn't something that any of my other customers want. But at the same time, we have a big customer maybe threatening not to renew because you don't have Albanian because that's important to them. So do you feel that that approach leaves you kind of chasing your tail a little bit and kind of not in control of your own destiny if you're being kind of bullied by big whale clients that kind of almost drive your internationalisation roadmap? Chui Chui Tan 21:55 Yeah, it actually reminded me of another incidence where I have a startup. So I'm not by not by those, like big company that they're involved. But it's more by investor because the investor actually have a connection, our connections with a certain country, they say, Okay, we want you to launch in that country as well. So yeah, that is common, actually done have a lot of clients in that situations as much. But yeah, I think to have a while the reason they don't, we shouldn't go for that route, is kind of like because you have lack of control, I think, in that sense, as well, if you want to launch and you actually those country, like it's a it's a smaller markets that you don't, then maybe, too, because it's an investor's request, or is it because of your partner request, then you might have to do it, then you could actually go in a small, soft launch that do the minimum in the sense of like, actually, I know it's going to work, and see how it works in that sense, unless the market that they want you to go into is a big impact markets like huge market and China or India or Indonesia or wherever, that, you know, actually there is a potential of doing well. So maybe, maybe you want to launch in that market eventually, but not right away. But you're actually asked to do that. Maybe actually, it's good to look into like the opportunity, maybe it's it's right, it's okay to kind of focus on that market first, and see what you can do to kind of launch it and then see how you grow from there. And then reprioritize your market as well. So I think it's based on the sense of which markets that you are kind of not forced, but he kind of the ask, politely to get into Jason Knight 23:37 strongly asked. But the alternative option then is, of course, going out and setting up your own offices. For example, let's say, again, maybe we'll go to Albania, maybe Albania is the big one. And we're going to go there, we're going to set up an Albanian office and set up an Albanian sales organisation and an Albanian support organisation, all of that stuff, but you're basically setting up a new company at that point, like a local satellite office, but it's a local company that you have to set up and staff to support everything in that market within the confines of your business. So do you feel that that's a strong play for a startup like that they should go and do that or that it's much better for them to, for example, go and partner with a local company and effectively use those as a channel to get to market but not have to set everything up themselves? Would you prefer personally to get partnerships going? Or do you think that that company plays a good one? Chui Chui Tan 24:28 Yeah, I think again, this depends on like what type of company you are. So the first one I can think of is that if you are thinking about what you need to launch in that market, like I don't think you need to go through on right away. So let's set it out. We have marketing, we have salesperson, we have designer. If we are talking about digital services first like you could actually launch from anywhere as long as you kind of like understand the market and then kind of set your pricing right set your propositions right and so on. You can Launch even from afar, right? Yeah, until you get a point I say, Okay, let's understand where the market is and everything, then we might need a sales, a few sales or marketing person in that market, then you can start working on that directions. I don't think any organisation even even I remember working with Asana with the Japan market, even as big as them, we will actually will start kind of, okay launching what is a new product, and then also look into, okay, what resources we might need then. And look into that in a step by steps way, not just like, full on, throw everything out, just recruit a full team. So I will say like, go for that options first. And then rather than go straight, say we full on or actually we get a partners, because getting a partner, like I said, there's a down the line effect on sometimes it was good, because they help you to get your product or your service out and everything, but you actually lost some control certain area as well. Yep. So you might as well just do it by yourself. And when you need a partnerships to launch, like, for example, you need a partnership. For example, Spotify, always look for partnerships on looking into like devices, or you know, game consoles and things like that, then you can look into those kinds of partnerships, you don't have to go full on, take my company, run my company in your local and you will lose a bit of control down the line. Jason Knight 26:24 Got to keep control. The speaking of control, I mean, are there any markets that are particularly difficult to cater for? So for me, for example, China was always a country that caused me to look twice, because obviously, they have the Golden Shield project, the Great Firewall of China that sit in there, between them and the rest of the world, there's a lot of local legislation that you have to comply with, you have to get your content provider licence, all of that stuff, it was just harder. So aside from that one, are there any other markets out there that you look at and say, oh, goodness, that's gonna be a big one. And like that, you need to have a lot of a run up to do it. Or in most countries, kind of okay to get into as long as you know, basically what you're doing, Chui Chui Tan 27:01 I always go back to their thing, since that depends on your product and services that you provide. Because it depends on your how people are going to use your products, right? Or how legally tight or strict the country is, like, for example, medical might be like finance might be a very legally every country's will be very different. But you are just a consumer products, which is quite easy to get into, then you are looking into different type of challenges to identify which country is harder to break into. So yeah, so that is kind of like the sense of what products how people behave and do that. Like in certain countries, maybe it's harder, because like, learning about kids learning for kids learning English or anything. So in certain markets is not just mom parents or school, but actually do you have tutions, and you have school on certain areas that you have to look into. So you might want to feel like actually your target users group is actually very spread out. Now, that might be harder for you to get into competitor as well. Some countries actually in certain areas, everyone was like you have a lot of competitions in our market. So then you might want to say actually, that market is not as easy to go into for your products, but for other products that is a no brainers to get into. So I think it's thinking about what your products are how how people interact with your products, how the government and legislations actually look into that product and to see what, but like I say China is a special one. It's harder, because they have their own products, they have firewall and things like that. So yeah, in that instance, that's what a lot of company actually done. Not going into it yet. Jason Knight 28:43 So what's the most difficult market that you've gone into? For a particular client? You'd have a name any specific names, but like, has there been like one that sticks out in your mind as well? Oh, that was a really hard project. And I'm glad that's finished. Chui Chui Tan 28:55 Wow, hard projects to finish. I think that is a copy and due to different reasons, but not just because it is a hot market to get into. I think overall, less thing about so some is hard to get into. So at some market is just really hard to break. So we were kind of looking into Hungary, for example, for a client of mine, it seems like no matter what we do, it says it seems to be they care much about Yeah, it's fine. You know, like the chins like the cross is kind of quite hard to get into for that clients for their products. And we've kind of tried different ways and do several research and say, Okay, what can we actually grow into that? It seems like for that kind of products that they're selling us users actually, it's kind of very basic needs. Well, I don't need much I just need this. You give me what you need. And that is it. I can use it for free. I don't need to pay so I'm fine you no matter what you give me I don't care. So in that instance, And it's really hard for that market to kind of see, Okay, what else we could do we need to dig dive deeper into the content they actually look into? Or should we have partnership of what the things they look into, or actually we look into to a target in a specific groups and then see exactly how they behave like for example, Gen Z, maybe we can just tuck it on there and go from there. So in certain markets, it's actually harder to kind of break because of how users behave. On certain times, it's because of the setup of the medical setup or whatever, it's just really hard to get into, you just need to take more time to break into. Jason Knight 30:39 Right. So that's interesting, then because another question I was going to ask and seems very apt at the moment is like, whether there's been any situations where you've had to recommend basically cancelling or pulling out of a market because the effort of going in the internationalisation efforts that you're going through, they just weren't working out, there was something that came up that didn't come up earlier. And you went a certain way down the line and looked okay, but then it started to look bad. And you decided it was time to maybe come back and maybe not go into Hungary, or Albania, or China or wherever it was? Like, once you're going in? Is it important to know for whatever reason to save face? Or to justify your sunk cost to kind of keep at it and try and make it work? Or there are some very good reasons to just get out? And have you ever recommended any of those reasons? Chui Chui Tan 31:25 So, yes, of course, like I don't we actually fortunately, my client, we actually never have to do that, in most instances. But we do questions, sometimes how much more effort, we need to put in that, that. But normally, when that happens is when they need my help, they cannot bring me in. So it wasn't like I was the whole way through with them. So yeah. So when they have that issues, then they will bring me in to say actually, shall we continue this market? Or shall we put this market on hold, just let it run as it is, and but focus on that market? So I have encountered that with actually two clients when they brought me in? They are in these situations and startup, kind of like mature startup as well. So yeah, so in that instance, we actually have to kind of make decisions, like we look into a lot of things, look into data, look into the amount that we kind of look into forecast what is going to happen, and what else needed to do. And then from my experience as well, what are the efforts that is needed to do to kind of make that call together in terms of what we should do? I cannot list out all the possibilities. Sometimes it was it was like, Do you want to sell it to kind of rebrand it? Or you know, there are a lot of different ways that we can go ahead with that. But yeah, as a matter of fact, that mess of things that we have to just look into different areas and make decisions and together. So Jason Knight 32:51 All right, sounds good. But I've got some actionable insight time. If you're an ambitious CEO, or I've no VP of product or marketing or Chief Commercial Officer or whoever is looking at this stuff, and you're curious about expanding out, what's the first place to start? I mean, apart from hiring you what's one thing that the company should do to start to get things moving properly and start to move in the right direction. Chui Chui Tan 33:14 I think to have a certain understanding internally about what you know about the markets, you want to get into the other country's options that you actually have in mind. So it to understand, like what we know already what we think is hypothesis, what we think is fact because we know already, what else that we can pull together everything to make decisions, because even eventually, you kind of come to me, I will still ask the same questions about what else do you know and I will be asking more questions promptly, what they don't know already, or challenge some of the things they do them having that kind of insight internally and kind of knowledge internally that is kind of useful to exercise to do anyway, to kind of see what they need to do, what kind of knowledge that they feel that they are lacking. Because sometimes awareness of being a meeting like actually we put our hands out, we don't know much because we've never done this before. That is actually a good exercise to do Sol, you know? Because some people were just like, well, we know it we just like we heard about someone talking about that we love we see this. So being aware and admitting that actually we don't know much. We're happy to be open minded about what to do. That is actually one seems good to do as well. Jason Knight 34:32 Is there some kind of canvas or list of key questions that you could point people to as a kind of starting point for that? I mean, obviously it's not going to do all of the job for them, but like just something to get them into that right mindset. Chui Chui Tan 34:43 I think that the thing that from what I was talking about, like which countries to look into is kind of good questions are asked like what kind of effort or okay, it's just for what do we know about these markets first, right and what hypothesis we know and everything and then use those insight or knowledge that you have then, you know, to kind of populate, like, Okay, how much ever we think we might need it? What kind of missing information that we don't think we know to know the efforts and money and investment that we need to put into? And then also the questions about what is the market size, total active users that you have? Get that and so calculate those informations. So it's kind of answering those few questions to understand what that means. And also, where do you want to get to right? Like in terms of, if you launch? If you're ready to launch, like, what does that mean? And how much growth you might want to kind of anticipate so that you can actually keep your business going. So that is the kind of what questions to ask. Jason Knight 35:43 Sounds good. Well, hopefully, we can persuade a few more people to ask them. And where can people find you after this if they want to talk more about market expansion, the ins and outs of internationalisation or maybe try and share some of their stories with you. Chui Chui Tan 35:55 So you can find me on my LinkedIn.. Chui Chui Tan. I think my you name is quite unique, so you can easily find me. So yeah, get in touch write to me saying you want to the reason that you want to have a chat. I'm happy to have a chat with any especially startups and VP of Products or anyone to just even bounce ideas and see what kind of input I can get them. My website is https://beyo.global. So you can find me there but um, or you can email on ChuiChui@Bayo.global. But LinkedIn is the best place and I'm quite active on there. So Jason Knight 36:30 there you go. Lots of places to get hold of you and I'll make sure to link those all into the show notes. Hopefully you get a few Globetrotters trotting in your direction. Well, that's been a fantastic chat. So obviously really glad we could spend some time on some important global issues. Hopefully we can stay in touch but yeah, as for now. Thanks for taking the time. Thank you so much. Thanks. As always, thanks for listening. I hope you found the episode inspiring and insightful. If you did again, I can only encourage you to hop over to white knight in product.com. Check out some of my other fantastic guests, sign up to the mailing list or subscribe on your favourite podcast app and make sure you share your friends so you will make never miss another episode again. I'll be back soon with another inspiring guest but as for now, thanks and good night.